QUESTION: Last month’s public letter was devoted quite a bit to hypnotism and the trend, becoming more and more popular, for the subliminal influences and emanations and so forth, to get their message across. Is there any defense that person has against this? How would we know it’s happening, or if we do suspect it, fight it and not just be taken over and just rushed off to do whatever they want you to do?
RICHARD KIENINGER: Well, it is very, very difficult to perceive. It really and truly it is. I mean subliminal messages can be buried so skillfully in just a spoken word or a song that there is almost no way to detect it unless you record it and play it back very slowly and listen to irregularities and try to pick out what has been done that way but it’s much easier to create it than to detect it. But our brains are able to perceive things — you know the eye is seeing things all the time and takes oh, maybe a thirtieth of a second for most people from the time that they receive a message through their eyes before they become conscious of it, but the fact is that the eye can perceive something that lasts only thousandths of a second and will not miss it but because it’s so short it won’t bring it up to the consciousness level because it doesn’t seem worthwhile to bring to the attention of the consciousness. But it nevertheless lodges itself in the subconscious where it keeps broadcasting its message. And the same thing works with things are just auditory. Things which are worked into tapes or music. It is hard to spot it. If something is coming over television, it’s almost impossible to catch. If you had a good clear film made of that you would perhaps be able to see it but you’d have to spend hours and hours and hours going over just a short ad, for instance, to spot where they put it in. The whole trick of it is that it not come to the consciousness. That’s when it’s most effective, Because if you become conscious of it, then it’s not subliminal any longer. Then you’re conscious of it and you can make a decision about whether you want to act on it or not. And, incidentally, subliminal things do not absolutely compel you to do what it suggests to do. But it nevertheless, you know if you see the same kinds of ads over and over again after awhile the cumulative effect is well, I better try this sort of thing. There it is and it’s always—the subliminal message is always whenever you see the symbol of whatever the trademark is, BUY. It’s good for you, or, sometimes the subliminal message says quote: “I love brand so and so.” Whatever that brand may be. The best trick is don’t ever watch television. (laughter)
Q: Would it help to particularly develop the Virtue of Discrimination so you’ll always make conscious choices about things and found yourself being tempted to act in a way that you might not normally automatically do? You might suspect something.
RK: Yes, that’s awareness. But you know, why do you pick one brand off the shelf rather than another brand? Sometimes if you’re switching from one supermarket to another you don’t always find the same brands. Why would you happen to select one over four or five which seem to be essentially the same? That’s where it’ll get you. You’ll make the decision based on a prejudice which has been put into you subliminally. And it’s worth it and it costs tens of thousands of dollars to produce a subliminal message into either a visual ad or a television or a radio sort of thing. And it pays off. I mean millions of dollars come back in return for the investment in that clever ad. We’re bombarded by it all the time. Politicians are using it, too.
Q: That’s where it gets scary.
RK: Yes, that’s where it gets scary.
Q:
You may see those swastikas plastered all over
RK:
It used to be. It’s not any longer. As a matter of fact the swastika the
swastika is now outlawed to be used in
Q: Well would it follow then, it would seem it would, that the more highly developed along the path towards Brotherhood a person is, the more you are protected against the subliminal?
RK: You mean by your own awareness?
Q: Yeah.
RK: Hopefully. I don’t know. There’s a lot of things that, say for instance, a fairly advanced individual—might be two or three degrees of Brotherhood—just doesn’t pay a lot of attention to. I mean, so when it comes—you know to selecting which brand of dish soap (laughter). How much awareness do you want to put on a subject like that?
Q: Are you familiar with the Essene Teachings—that’s my first part of the question — of Jesus?
RK: Well, Jesus was an Essene.
Q: Alright, do you know about the Essene Gospels, and the various manuscripts that were left with the Essenes?
RK: Szekely’s discussion of such things?
Q: He’s the one who translated them, yes.
RK: Yes, I am aware of that.
Q: How would you reconcile the difference between philosophies you put forth which say it’s okay to eat flesh in lower forms of life and the teachings of Jesus which says to quote Jesus: “life comes only from life and from death comes always death; you cannot serve two masters, because you’ll hate one and reject the other.” And his teachings in that book, he strictly adheres to the spiritual that are harmlessness, and how would you reconcile that difference from some of the teachings that I see here?
RK: Well, some of us have become inured to murdering carrots and cabbages and things of that sort just because the other alternative things to eat are not particularly interesting to us. So, we kill fruits and vegetables because I think they were there for us to kill so they could provide life.
Q: I can comment on that. We don’t kill the fruits and it doesn’t hurt the tree and secondly if that’s the argument then in taking the fruits it’s still a question of how why we are living on the earth, because we eat the animal, and not only are consuming the animal, but all of the food that the animals eat, so you’re still taking twenty-fold at least as much. The figures I’ve seen is that it takes fifty to a hundred times as much land to produce animal protein as vegetable protein.
RK: Well, we find it very necessary to have a balanced diet where we also use meat so we do not have to — there’s so much of grain that you have to eat and in the proper balances between, say protein type things and grain things, that it requires that you get pretty overweight to get all the basic protein that is required. The concentrative protein that our human bodies were designed primarily from the—we came up from simpler primates and were evolved quite consciously by our Angelic Creators to be able to eat all kinds of foods — we’re kind of like cockroaches—we’ll eat anything. And the reason for that was in order to be able to live in climates so we’re not constantly in the tropical weather zones—to be able to live in the places that were, say in the temperate zones, where we have winter and obviously nothing is growing fruit and vegetable-wise in the wintertime, that the only fresh food would be in the form of living animals. Until such time as mankind developed itself whereby it could learn how to preserve certain kinds of foods over the wintertime, then they were restricted to the tropical zones. But it seems that there is also a lot of diseases and, say insect vermin that survive year round in those tropical areas which were nice to get away from, that helped to diminish the kinds of disease problems that human beings suffered by getting into the temperate zones, but in order for, as I said, for human beings to survive over the winter, they needed fresh food. We didn’t get mechanical refrigeration and things of that sort in order to preserve food for quite a long time and before anything that resembled the culture evolved, the human animal needed to eat whatever it could. So we were designed to be able to deal with both kinds of food. It’s my understanding that the, well things like rabbits and rodents of one sort or another, were essentially designed to feed the higher carnivores, the larger carnivores including the, some of the predatory birds and things of that sort. And each of these life forms were evolved essentially to serve in a chain of, well—it’s a food chain and we kind of sit at the top of that food chain because we, as a matter of fact, are able to accommodate to almost anything whereas many animals are very fixed in what their diet is. Some things will eat the leaves of only one tree, for instance, will eat only grubs and worms, or certain kinds of insects or some birds will eat only certain types of grains and other birds will eat only worms. They’re restricted in their diet. We’re able to take in everything — omnivorous —and we were designed to be that way. For instance, the gorilla, in order to survive on a purely vegetarian diet, has to have a huge gut to process all of that vegetable food. If we were to go through the same kind of thing as human beings, we would not have nice trim figures. We would indeed find it difficult to move around as well because apes, particularly ground apes, do not move very gracefully or very quickly. So we were designed to do those kinds of things.
RK: Also, I know that there have been quite a few scholars who have asked to see the documents that Mr. Szekely claims to have been given to him, and he does not want to profane them by giving them to other people. So scholars are unable to check out what his translations are. I know I have sent away and asked at one time because I really wanted to know about such things and have photographs — I didn’t want to touch the originals — or have some kind of copies — so they were just not available.
Q: Can I comment on that last one?
RK: Yes.
Q:
Scriptures are held by the
RK:
Well, see, I’ve heard just the opposite. I have not been able to see any such
documents. On this particular point I have to go by what I hear. So I’m not
right there to actually work with a person. I have gone to
Q: You find that you feel it’s healthier for people to eat meat than to go on a vegetarian diet?
RK: Well, Jesus, or I should say Christ, used to eat at feasts and partake of all of the foods that were given and that seems to have been the example that he was giving, whatever he might have said or somebody said that he said about what kinds of foods to eat. The example he gave was partaking of the feasts as everybody else did. Eating of the lamb or the goat or whatever it was that was being provided. He even drank wine, which he made quite a few comments about. You know, some people complained about him being a wine dibber, and other people complained about John the Baptist not drinking wine and so he kind of inquired: what do you want? How can anybody win? So, … many people would say, I suppose, in as much as Christ drank wine at the festivals and sacramental times, that everybody should drink wine all the time to the point of getting drunk. I don’t think that that’s a good argument because it doesn’t seem that there’s any records of him getting drunk. So, what should we follow? His example, or what some people translated or think some of the people who talked about him said he wanted to do.
Q: Have you seen any actual reports of studies comparing vegetarians to meat eaters that actually show meat eaters are healthier? Because I’ve seen innumerable studies that prove from actual observation there’s no doubt that meat eaters are more unhealthy. For example, breast cancer is well over a doubled rate amongst meat eaters; colon cancer, which is the third most common cancer, is virtually unheard of amongst vegetarians and many other things.
RK: The problem with that is that people do not eat a balanced diet. In many places it’s meat and potatoes, meat and potatoes. That was my father’s idea and I know how prevalent that is, and salad was rabbit food and vegetables had no taste. Of course he smoked cigarettes and of course vegetables didn’t have any taste unless he doused them with a lot of pepper. So, it didn’t have much appeal to him. People who are into that sort of thing can take as long as three weeks from the time they ingest something to the time that it passes out. That’s the kind of thing that can cause cancer. It’s just an accumulation of poisons. I would say that a person should have at least three quarters of the things that they eat being of vegetable or fruit origin and only one quarter meat. Then, you have to eat so much vegetable stuff in order to get the basic amount of minerals and vitamins that you would need that unless you’re a ditch digger or a farmer who doesn’t believe in using mechanisms on his farm, you’re not going to be able to work off the calories that are involved.
Q: Is this something the Brotherhoods taught you or is this your?
RK: This is what I was asked to do and to teach people to do. But I have, not to be rude—I mean I’ve known vegetarians —I find many of them do not have the kind of physical strength necessary to carry out a full day’s work. They just—I even tried vegetarianism one time because I read a yoga book and it seemed to imply that I would be likelier to become more spiritual if I didn’t eat so much meat, and as a matter of fact it recommended that I cut out all meat and things of vegetable origin like butter and milk and things of that sort. I was eating continuously it seemed like, but I kept losing weight more and more and finally when I was down to 120 pounds I figured this wasn’t good for my health so I decided to go back to normal eating. Got back to normal, I’d say, in about two years. So, at least for me it doesn’t work and most of the people I’ve known who’ve tried vegetarianism just kind of waste away so far as their muscles are concerned. But there’s also other difficulties too as far as being able to have proper transmission of electrical impulses along the nervous system. That’s dependent somewhat on the choline that comes in through primarily meat products. Choline is the principle neurotransmitter of the system. We’ve had a number of people here who’ve tried, oh, macrobiotic type things. Aside from the physical wasting, a kind of a change in personality came about as well. They be came so passive that they really didn’t hardly seem to have any drive to accomplish anything, to have ambition to go out and fire up and get something done. And I guess they got very spiritual, or some people said “spacey”, but I think spiritual is what they were looking for, and it seemed about the only way to get them back to normal again was to go back to a conventional diet.
I have heard that people who
have survived over the many, many generations in the Middle East, for instance,
or, when I said Middle East I really meant the middle of Asia, which is like
India, those people have, or at least the survivors over the many generations,
have actually developed an ability to do without meat and, indeed, have managed
to continue life fairly effectively on a strictly meatless diet. People in
western areas of Europe, and, from which most of the descendants in the
But people in
Q: Would you agree, then, that the most violent people have, race-wise, ... always have been the heaviest meat-eating cultures?
RK: I agree 100 percent. (laughter)
Q: Some tribes, for example, who have been developed the highest spiritually have always been vegetarians, such as the Essenes in the Middle East, the Hopis, who are the only vegetarian American Indians which were considered the spiritual leaders, and, as you spoke of, in India, has always been considered to be one of the high spiritual centers of the world.
RK: Well, the person who is adept at clairvoyance soon begins to understand that this spiritual ability is really a spiritual takeover by other entities on the other side, where they give strange ideas, diminish let’s say, self—determination, a willingness to surrender, to go with the f low, to do whatever they are told to do and indeed do not know how to resist after awhile because the spirit entities who kind of influence them really dominate them quite thoroughly. They just don’t have the drive to raise themselves up out of that kind of spiritual domination by nether entities. Literally whole continents have been dominated by Black Mentalists in the past because they just do not have the, let’s say, the spiritual resistance to be self rather than being told and constantly encouraged subliminally by the telepathic hypnosis that such spirit entities use to give up their will, to surrender to “God” to obey. They’re in kind of a—let’s say the meat eaters are kind of a feisty bunch and they do give themselves a hard time and they have not yet learned to, let’s say, practice the kind of moderation and, let’s say, a consideration for other people which, I think, an awareness of karma can help people to modify by saying, well, okay, if I introduce something which is hurtful to another then the same kind of hurt precisely is going to come back to me. I think that’s the kind of knowledge which people have lacked in western Europe.
Indeed, Western Europeans have been the ones who have constantly gone in and been the conquerors, the dictators, the colonialists, the ones who, have just to the great consternation of peaceful peoples all over the world come in and just enslaved them either economically, or politically, or worse. So, I’m inclined to suspect the best thing to do is not to give up self-determination, but to learn how to balance it, to understand from the wisdom that has been carried out by the people of the East and by the Brotherhoods that whatever you introduce is going to come back to you and if you think there’s something that might hurt you, just don’t start it with somebody else. That’s the kind of restraining thing I think that’s necessary to live properly.
Q: Do animals have free will?
RK: No. They have no will at all. They have direction and drive which is built into them, but they do not make moral decisions or do anything other than what they are programmed to do.
Q: Alright, how many of the original members of the Stelle Group are presently with you? The original group in the 60’s?
RK: Well, let’s see, about, — I’m saying somewhere between 20 and 25. Do you have a number? ...
Q:
You see, because I don’t understand why they seem to be phasing out now on
their way to
RK: Right.
Q: And it seems like the Stelle Group as it was originally is on its way somewhere else and now you have local people coming into this.
RK: Well, we do hire local people in our industries.
Q: This is now an open community, isn’t it?
RK: Right.
Q: So anyone can come in and buy a home here.
RK: Correct.
Q: And not necessarily be of the philosophy of the Stelle Group?
RK: Correct.
Q: Why did that happen?
RK:
Well, we, in the first place, it happened because I was instructed to have that
happen and my questions — you know, ‘cause that took me aback, also — is
that people really have difficulty moving into a community, whether or not it
promotes New Age concepts, if it seems to be dominated by some particular
church, and by backing off of that situation, of The Stelle Group being the
thing that’s in control, the organization that’s in control of the community,
allows the community to feel more open, allows people then to say, well, hey,
if I move there, it’s not going to be something I have to belong to. It also
gives people a chance to come here for awhile, see what it is that we’re trying
to accomplish, and then decide on that basis whether or not they really want to
join it. We’ll continue to offer courses here for anybody who wishes to learn
about The Stelle Philosophy, but other people may choose to also teach their
things, in which, indeed, we’re allowing others to do. We rent these facilities
to people who wish to teach what it is that they feel that other people would
like to know about. And it gives a more Americanized openness to our community
than what it had been before. Closed communities, I think people feel, are
elitist, and they are a little bit upset about, just by the tradition of our
training in this country. So, by opening it, people who are still interested in
New Age things are the ones who are encouraged to move here. And they’re
encouraged by their beliefs and ideas. The people who have been moving into
Stelle have almost not been local people — they’re people who have moved here
from all over the
This city has to grow to a
considerable size and I think this is the way to do it. I didn’t at first. You
know, I was first told, you’re going to build a city, and as far as I’m
concerned, we started Stelle and got it off the ground and it is here. And
that’s more than a lot of people thought we would ever be able to do. So, since
these things seem to have been somewhat successful, I’m going to continue to
assume that it’s going to continue to be successful. Meanwhile, the special
community that’s being created down at
Q: No, I don’t, thank you.
Q: I’m a relative newcomer to The Ultimate Frontier and I’m having that experience of logically the ideas work for me, but also I have read a book by Rudolph Steiner, The Gospel of St. John, and there is something in there I’d like you to comment on. Maybe you could help me work this out. I see it as a conflict in the philosophy, and that’s the idea of, he talks about the Age of Lemuria as being an age where Egos were not that advanced and that some of the things that are mentioned in The Ultimate Frontier seem to conflict with un-evolved Egos in the Lemurian Period as Rudolph Steiner talks about. Could you shed any light on that?
RK: OK, did he not also say that you could see through human bodies at that time when the earth was not completely formed?
Q: Yes he did, right.
RK:
That comes from the Shamballists, via Blavatsky, and indeed, Steiner was, for
quite a long time, personally acquainted with Blavatsky, and he also was kind
of an important figure in the development of The Theosophical Society in
But, The Brotherhoods completely discount those ideas. That mankind has — we’re all of one species, we all are of the same original stock, as it were, and through different … climatic conditions that people were in on the parts of the planet they were in, evolved into the different specialties, particularly skin color wise. Those who lived in the equatorial zones needed ways to defend themselves against the intense sun so they developed more pigment in their skin. But the fact is that wherever you find human beings, whatever, if they evolved into a shorter race or a taller race or a blonder one or a black one, we, all of them can breed between one another. They are all of one species. Just as different kinds of dogs are different races of one species. All dogs are able to breed with one another. All human beings are able to breed with one another. We are all one. The idea of a — that by having a certain blood line in your genetic strain from your parents is suddenly going to project you into being a superman just doesn’t go with The Brotherhood’s teachings.
Q: Logically, though, wouldn’t it — if we reincarnate to advance our Ego, of course, you can regress, as I understand it but, logically, if you do advance after each incarnation, wouldn’t we be more evolved now than the people in the Lemurian Age?
RK: Indeed, the highest civilization that has ever been evolved was in Lemurian times. Most of us hanker to go back to our remembrance, or subconscious remembrance of those things. It’s really not subconscious, it’s part of the egoic memory, not the, not of any ? brain. But you and I and everybody here has incarnated into just every race that there is. Wherever the best things seem to be going at a time, that’s where we’ll go. And if we’re interested in evolving ourselves rapidly we’ll go to whatever continent and whatever peoples has figured out the best thing going at the time. But, you know, we’ve worn every skin color there is in several thousand incarnations, so, once you come to the realization of that, it’s hard to decide that somebody should be discriminated against on the basis of how much pigment they have in their skin. Hopefully, it gets to be a ridiculous argument.
Q: I didn’t really catch that from reading that one book, and I’m sure that there are other books that might touch on that, but I didn’t catch that from that book.
RK: Well, Steiner has written a lot of books. Blavatsky wrote even more.
Q: I think well, maybe where the conflict of understanding this about being advanced lies on that a great many of the people in Lemuria became Masters. In other words we’re not all way up high and then we all went down. Most of them went up.
RK: Yes, sort of a continual evolution. All of us started out blank, knowing nothing. And that’s our job, through opportunities to continue to work out our karma, our — the that things we need to balance ourselves incarnation after incarnation. Those are the things that keep moving us forward. But all of us started out zero and some of us has made it to Mastership, and we’re following their clues, and it’s hard for you to know exactly how far you may have evolved. You may have in another lifetime, in another culture which was designed to more readily move persons from, let’s say, childhood through adulthood in a smooth way, without going through all kinds of neurotic responses and diminishing ways of doing things, have been able to get to several of advancement over, you know, however many hundreds upon hundreds of incarnations you’ve gone through, and maybe you’re one of those people who had their arm twisted on the astral plane to come down and help get things moving again to reestablish a civilization where people could more readily move towards the advancement that all of us need to have and want to have. Many of us here, of course, will not be able to enjoy, let’s say, the beginnings of The Nation of God ‘cause we’re going to be too old, but our children and our grandchildren will be the ones who will be able to stand on our shoulders from what we’ve produced and develop that Nation to a much better stage using the Philosophy, since it is in accordance with Natural Law to really get there. But then, you will have someplace really worthwhile to incarnate into later, so, what you’re working on now you can benefit from later. If nobody works on that, nobody bends their efforts to creating that Nation, then there’ll be almost nothing into which we can incarnate for a long period of time. But the Brotherhoods do see that it will become a success that the Golden Age is just some fourteen years away from us, sixteen years, pardon me.
Q: In reading the book, I think I kept looking for, maybe a clearer identification, or maybe the word would be definition I’m not sure which word there, of The Black Mentalists. The question would be, could you define Black Mentalists?
RK: These are essentially spirit entities who have developed great mental powers. They are really quite intelligent, but their outlook is one of great hatred. They are the great haters of the world. Fortunately they never come into incarnation, because we would have a difficult time dealing with them, but they can operate by through a system of telepathic hypnosis through people who get into the occult or are hateful or power hungry people like Hitler. They could work through him and might just as well of been here. And these mentalists have such a, well they have such large karmic debts that there is no real way for them to, even if they could incarnate continuously from now until the end of the progression of the Life Wave which is some 7,000 years from now, be able to get themselves moving in the right direction so as to achieve Mastership. So, since they cannot have the prize, they seem to have sort of an all pervading bitterness, deciding that they’re going to keep anybody else from having it either. I don’t know if you can understand that kind of thinking, but I think I have gotten a grip on it from some people’s arguments who happen to be kind of the same turn of mind.
Q: So they’ve always been spirit entities?
RK: No, they used to be human beings, incarnate just like you and I, and they are human beings, also, but, you know they don’t incarnate. They’re kind of restricted to living on the lower astral plane. And the reason why they’re called Black Mentalists is because their hatred is so great that their aura has no brightness in it at all, it’s very muddy, very dark. We often speak of Beings of Light as being those who are of great advancement; well these are Beings of Darkness and they are very intelligent and they have a lot of skills in how to manipulate the brains of other people. But they are not happy people by any means. They, and people like the Shamballists and Agarthis in Tibet, who they have controlled for a long time, or helped to, let’s say, turn against mankind, have been the ones who have been responsible for the, let’s say, the mass slaughterings of whole cultures. Things that are going on in South America, pardon me, in Southeast Asia today, where literally millions of people are being slaughtered by others of their own population; the kinds of genocide that occurs between the various tribes, for instance, in Africa, where three major tribes, or something like that, will become part of a new republic, and then one tribe manages to get most power and then they try to wipe out the other tribes; the hatred that exists between Arab and Jew; the resentments that flare up constantly between the Protestants and the Catholics in Ireland; these are constantly being fed by these nether entities and by those who have learned, whether they’re incarnate or decarnate, the methods of imparting hatred and fear to other people through a telepathic hypnosis techniques.
Human beings left to themselves want to love one another and be at peace with one another, but so long as they have these other types constantly stirring things up, we will not have peace here, and yet, no one would be susceptible to these kinds of things if they were not already prone to hatred and fear, because those are the kinds of thoughts that put you on the same wave length vibrationally, as it were, with the nether entities — you put yourself on their wavelength. You become a ready receptor of what it is that they have to spew out in the way of their garbage. If the world really had a Christ Consciousness, then such entities would have absolutely no power over anyone.
Q: You mentioned a few groups, there are all groups in this world that have a lot of control that are not, well they don’t expose themselves to the masses in general. This country has also had various groups that had a lot of control that most people never hear about. How would you identify the Council on Foreign Relations and the Bilderbergers?
RK:
Well, those are people who have a great deal of power and a great deal of
wealth and who have found ways by getting their together to protect common
interests. In many cases there are a few, would you say, leaders among these
groups, which really see themselves as a kind of a protective society for their
interests. There are, nevertheless, a few of them who are the leaders who
really do desire to dominate all persons throughout the whole world to make of
the world a slave camp, or let’s say, a big ant heap, and we all do our
assigned tasks, and, if we rebel, we just disappear. They — the prototype of
what they hope to set up has been established in the communist countries and,
indeed, they are wealthy people, the incredibly superrich the ones who have
promoted these experiments, who have managed to dominate
Q: Okay. He was asking about the Black Mentalists and you said, answering his question, I just want to get something clear. Do you think that since we are aware of say, the murdering, and the wars going on, like in El Salvador and all of those other things, even like marijuana, that we contribute to some of this, say the energies that the Black Mentalists live on, that since we are aware that we let it happen, do you think that we contribute to it, even in the subconscious? Despite, well I mean, people, everyone’s aware of it,
RK: Who’s we? I mean, the population at large?
Q: Well, you hear it from the news media, there’s war here, there’s murder here, when it happens next door, you know, we are aware of it, and yet there’s not much that people will do to fight against it. I mean, we protect ourselves, but —
RK:
Again, perhaps the only way to do, and indeed there are hundreds of groups who
are trying to raise the consciousness of, let’s say, the interference of The
United States Government officially in the internal affairs of some smaller
nation someplace, presumably for the good of that nation, but always, somehow,
for the furtherance of U.S. Policy, We can always say, well, the communists are
doing it so we have to do it. You know, and I have to admit that I only know
what I read in the newspapers half the time are the communists really there or
aren’t they? I’m inclined to suspect they are, but I don’t even know for sure.
I’m not down there to investigate, and sometimes, reporters will go down there
to investigate and we never hear any reports from them again. There’s dirty
business afoot all the time, Not just in The United
States. I mean there’s other places. I am not trying
to say, well, we’re okay because we’re no worse than anybody else. It’s just
like one criminal saying well, you know, I’m okay because, you know, all these
other people here in the jail are also criminals. The only thing wrong with
them is they get caught. Everybody’s criminals. That’s
their view, some are legal criminals and some are illegal criminals. That’s the
self-justification system. You know, we can easily fall into that sort of thing.
But there are groups who, very earnestly, try the best they can to keep the
public alert to what is happening. People can always say,
well if anything goes wrong, it was The CIA did it. Well, maybe The CIA did,
and maybe they didn’t but the point is, that somebody at least is aware that
something bad is happening to some group of people and they’re trying to stop
it, or keep the public aware of the situation. I don’t know if many people here
are acquainted with a new chemical weapon called “Yellow Rain.” It’s hard to
believe that anybody would unleash that and literally kill hundreds of
thousands of people a month through the use of chemical agents of that sort, But it is happening, it really is so. And, since the
Russians are apparently the ones who are supplying this stuff to whatever
governments want to get rid of portions of their population, we say, well, gee
the Russians are doing it, we better make some ourselves. There’s a kind of a logic to that but at the same time where do you stop this
kind of thing. The thing to do is to continually protest it. Bring evidence.
Bring survivors to The United Nations and have them do
something, but, incredibly, The United Nations doesn’t do anything. They like
to talk. So we really do get the feeling that it’s almost a kind of a useless
thing. Can we protect the whole world, or do we need to consolidate and protect
ourselves? If we are aware of it, how do we keep those persons who are
dependent upon us safe from it? We decided back during World War II, the way to
keep
If people could at least understand karma, understand that what they are doing to other peoples must come back to them, then perhaps they would change, but remember, many people don’t believe in God, or in karma, or indeed, much of anything other than having power over others. And even the desire for power over others usually stems from personal fear. The way to control others is to eliminate them or put them away, cart them off to some other place. I think fear is the biggest destroyer of everything that we hold dear. And, indeed, holding fear ourselves, destroys our own bodies because of the kinds of vibrations that it generates throughout us.
If we could stop fearing and develop some courage, decide what we can do and how we can do it, that there’s a way. The Stelle Group thinks they’ve found a way. Maybe not the best way, maybe not the only way, but it is, you know, one group trying to do something which is going to be beneficial. But fortunately there are many.
Q:
How will the coming of the Antichrist number one, effect the
RK:
They’re fairly nebulous at this point because until you see what kinds of
things you have to fight. It’s kind of hard to know what your defense should be
or what you’re going to have to come up with, but, the Antichrist will
principally have his influence in Europe and the
There are many predictions
that the religious based wars in France, in particular, will shed the blood of
literally millions of Christians as the Church established by the Antichrist
will, which will be very much like the Nazi religion, and most people really
are not aware that Nazism was more of a religion than anything else so far as
the way Hitler used it. Nazism derives its name from the National Socialist
Workers’ Party, but Nazism as the philosophy was really strongly
anti-Christian, strongly anti-scientific, and pro-killing and dying for the
great forces that are in control of the world, which were essentially satanic
in the background. So it was a religion of black arts. The SS were primarily
the priests and ministers of all that, and most of these kinds of things came
out during the Nuremberg Trials and they didn’t even want to address them mainly
because they couldn’t understand them. They tried people on entirely different
charges, mainly because they just couldn’t understand the kinds of thinking or
philosophy that was essentially satanic. They didn’t want to get into that at
all. The lawyers and the jurists literally couldn’t understand that sort of
thing. They didn’t want to get into it at all, and so they avoided the subject,
but it kept coming up over and over again: “Why was I motivated to do this? Because it was part of my religion.” I mean, you know, the
idea of making one single massacre throughout all of
Now, the same kind of
thinking will be involved in the new kind of religion which will be more
fascist than the fascists, more reactionary than many reactionary things we’ve
had before to deal with. And this is a, we’re coming up into an era now, where
the kind of fearful things, the things that people are afraid of the rapid changes,
the need to go back to presumably more stable things in the past, to become
more, more conservative, conservative to the point of being reactionary in
itself. That’s what happened in
The Antichrist will make the appearance of being the savior of the European economy, to provide security against the growing strength of the Asians and will, indeed, be thought of as being like the savior, and he’ll promote himself as being a man of God, when actually he is a person who is trying to destroy anything which is good and Christian in the world. And he won’t start out being an evil person. He will be seduced step-by-step into being a person like that, much as Hitler was. When Hitler was a little boy he was not any different than other little boys, but he was introduced into occult concepts and ways of gaining power through using black arts and sexual magic, sorcery, he was into peyote long before people in this country even heard of peyote. So, he had to be seduced step-by-step to be a mouthpiece, a tool, for nether entities. But, that could happen to anybody if you don’t take heed or the morality which has been developed in western culture over a period of many generations of observing what happens to people when they take certain courses. So, you know, the best way to keep from being a person like Hitler is to don’t get into witchcraft or occultism and things or that sort. It’s hard for most people to know where that line is where they step over the bounds of just learning about things occult, and actually becoming a tool of other entities on the other side because they expose themselves or open themselves to being used by them. Indeed, entities, spirit entities are rite throughout the astral plane seeking some way to have control over what happens on the physical plane by taking over the brain of somebody who is in the physical plane and working through them, speaking through them, and therefore, having an effect on what happens in our human affairs from the lower astral plane. It’s very easy. It’s so easy it’s terrifying to become used or being a dupe of such spirit entities. Practically all you need to do is deeply desire doing so and not have any idea that you should be afraid of that. And it’s almost a shoe in, So there are literally hundreds of thousands of our citizens are in some way being manipulated by nether entities to undermine our institutions, to diminish our culture to undermine our youth. It’s hard to believe that that’s happening. And yet the only defense that any of us have is don’t mess around with things which you don’t have the power individually to control. Don’t go past Christ’s protection. We all have protection from Christ, But we have the right to go beyond that. We may investigate wherever we choose to investigate, providing we’re willing to pay the price, And most of us are not given the information of what that price is. There’s hundreds and hundreds of books in metaphysical bookstores which talk about all the glories and the powers and what have you doing this and doing that, ? which is essentially sorcery. They don’t tell you what the price is, or what can happen if things go wrong. Or if they do, they discount it as being, “It is said that some people if they do this sort of thing they might encounter forces which they cannot handle, but that’s really not so,” In which event it’s just a lie.
People who write books like that are already trapped. Their job is to write books that entrap more people. I’ve always been a little bit unhappy that The Ultimate Frontier is sometimes sold by metaphysical bookstores which have other kinds of books in it which, I mean, just picking up in my hand I feel kind of creepy. Some metaphysical bookstores I open the door, walk in and turn right around and walk out again, I just don’t like the vibes in the place at all. So, I’m really much happier to find The Ultimate Frontier at Marshall Fields booksellers rather than in the metaphysical bookstores.
I went on to quite a tirade about all that sort of thing, but the point is that there is great danger but there is no need to open yourself to it. There’s no way that these nether entities can have any influence over you directly if you have good will towards others, develop a Christ Consciousness, which is essentially a lovingness towards everybody, a lovingness towards yourself and others. There’s no way that these nether entities can touch you.
However, they can influence people who are in your environment if they do not use those protections, but those people you can deal with. I mean, they’re there, You can either get away from them, or if they do things which are criminal, turn them in, There are ways you can protect yourself from other people who are on the physical plane with you. You’re dealing with them on a conscious level, rather than on one of these unaware levels that telepathic hypnosis can induce, So, the worst thing in the world to do is be afraid of Black Mentalists. But yet you need to be aware of them so that you know how they operate. You can defend yourself easier against an enemy whose methods you know, and anytime you think that somebody is bugging you, all you have to do is just say: “Christ, protect me.” That’s all you have to do, and it works. As a matter of fact, it’s, you know, part of The Lord’s Prayer: “Deliver me from evil.” As a matter of fact, I think everybody should use some kind of a Protective Prayer everyday, maybe twice a day. When you get mad at your boss, say a protective prayer and cool off and say, why should I get myself into angry type of thinking. That goes against me.
Q: Would you say a few words on The Rites of Passage? I’ve heard that mentioned but I don’t know what that is.
RK: We have a Rite of Passage which is supposed to occur about the age of twelve or thirteen where a child has essentially gone through something akin to a catechism. They’ve come to understand what The Philosophy is, they are accepted as full-fledged members of the community, they’re not members of The Stelle Group as yet, because you have to be of majority age in order to do that, but they are then accepted as people who are responsible, and a recognition of their capabilities which are really quite adult when you get to be 12 or 13, even though you haven’t reached full stature or total understanding, you can be a very responsible citizen at that age. And we also request of them that they learn certain skills... It’s kind of like accumulating badges in Girl Scouts or accumulating badges in Boy perhaps Scouts, except perhaps there’s a little bit more practical application of the things that we ask them to do, and they’re able to select which ones of many they choose to work on, which they do for maybe a year, a year and one-half before they go through The Rite of Passage. That Rite of Passage is done in the presence of the entire community. At that time they really feel that they have accomplished something—that they pass a kind of a test, and they’ve done that successfully, they’ve proven that they are really worthwhile people and they’re no longer just to be regarded as children, And it seems to boost their self-esteem considerably. That’s what a Rite of Passage is.
Q: Is there any record to stand on stating that marijuana is a force which is being influenced by those you call The Black Mentalists, which costs the and loss in this culture; therefore, because it’s so destructive it should be kept illegal?
RK: Well, I don’t think—do you think it really should be, you know, sold to nine year olds and eleven year olds in the school yards?
Q: Well, I’m not advocating it... I’m just asking if you’re advocating that it be illegal.
RK: Well, I don’t think most parents want it around at all. You feel the laws are good?
Q: So you feel it should be illegal?
RK: Well, you know, I think it should be prevented from coming into the country, and the so-called efforts to keep it from coming into the country are just directed against certain competitors of those who have the inside track to the market, which are protected by the government.
Q: Well what about the people that are growing it in the country?
RK: Well I think whenever it’s found it should be uprooted.... Marijuana is an interesting substance, and we had a discussion about it last night ‘cause somebody wanted to know just very earnestly, (I know that they don’t use either of these substances, but what’s the difference between alcohol and marijuana) and we went into quite a — I went into quite a dissertation on it from all the things that I had learned. One of the principle things is that as soon as you smoke marijuana, within a few seconds the bioelectric field that surrounds the body just completely collapses and doesn’t come back for another five days or so. Perhaps another thing that I didn’t happen to talk about last night, but I think is important, is that Indians in this country have used it for a long time in order to reach spirit entities because it does open you to the influence of spirits, which they sought. Sometimes I think they hoped they were going to be reaching good spirits or their ancestors or something like that, but generally speaking they did not, because their ancestors, I don’t think, would want to try to influence them in that way. But, there’s a number of psychoactive drugs of that sort which allows for easy spirit domination, and people take it for that reason. Some people, of course, just smoke a joint in order to get high, not realizing what other things they might possibly be opening themselves to. A gradual change, for instance, of their attitudes and outlooks, which are induced by other persons, gradually introducing one idea, and if, just slightly undermining, but if you accept it then they’ll offer another idea which is even more undermining until finally you have changed entirely in your character over a period of a few years.
Q: I’m still not certain if you’re saying it should be legal or illegal? What’s your stand on it?
RK: Well, I don’t believe that tobacco should be legal, so you’re asking me, should any drug which is detrimental to large numbers of people and can even kill them, should we say, well, let’s provide it, and if the FDA allowed any kind of candy on the market which killed as many people as tobacco did, people would be climbing all over the FDA about it. But, you know, candy manufacturers do not pay several billion dollars worth of taxes every year like the tobacco industry does and so, I guess, the government is more tolerant of tobacco because it comes in — and a lot of people wouldn’t vote for the legislators who outlawed it because people like to be able to have their smoke. But the same thing is happening, I think, with marijuana. Some people, there’s a large number of people who would like to be able to smoke dope without feeling hassled about it, or having to feel paranoid about it and hide someplace when they’re doing it which is nice. I suppose every time people want to do what they feel they want to do, it’s nice not to have other people interfering in their environment and saying they can’t do it. The law, I think, gets involved every time we’re trying to protect people who don’t know any better because, essentially they’re children, or they’re just uninformed. Every nation in the world tries to diminish the use of drugs within their society because it makes their society come apart at the seams and makes them open to, let’s say, invasion by other people, or just infiltration until they no longer are in control. It’s hard to advance except when one is on the hard point of reality.
Q: It puzzles me. That seems in direct conflict to The Lemurian Philosophy which you speak of which is that no one has the right to invade someone else’s space. Now, if someone is smoking marijuana, it’s something they’re doing to themselves, Now, to outlaw and say that it’s destructive, therefore it should be illegal, there’s no validity to that argument. If you that far, you should outlaw white sugar because it’s destructive, you should outlaw white flour and on and on. But these are all things people choose for themselves. Now how is that any different if you say, because in your eyes, it’s morally wrong, so it should be illegal and the Moral Majority, which says that their morals, what they see is wrong, should be illegal?
RK: Well, you have me on that argument. You know. Do we still carry white sugar here? I’m not sure if we do in our mart, at any rate. We do? Okay. We sell a lot more honey, though. Haven’t bought white sugar for, I don’t, or sucrose, I guess, for about seven years. But I don’t buy cigarettes either, for that matter. Your argument is good in the fact that, you know, if people want to take dope, that it’s a crime without a victim. I mean, a person in that particular case is doing something against the law, but who’s the victim? If the person, himself, is the one who is suffering, that’s his choice. If he thinks he’s benefiting from it, that’s his choice. It’s not happening to anybody else. One of the big problems that comes in is the people, who in order to support their expensive habit, try to sell it to innocents. I know that in Dallas, where I live, there’s a big problem of children who are nine years old who steal constantly from their parents and from their neighbors in order to support the habit of, where they need to have this dope because they just are psychologically dependent on it, or, marijuana’s not the only thing.... They encourage children to take some pretty potent stuff. But the crime, from it, that results in people trying to get the money together in order to continue their habit is where the community usually sees that there is a connection. And it has a right to protect itself under those circumstances from unscrupulous dealers.
Q: Well how’s that different than say, the kid who steals money ‘cause he’s addicted to candy, though?
RK:
I guess there really isn’t any difference, you know, but the point is that, the
child who is addicted to candy, has a real problem, and he is definitely
undermining himself. In many cases, however, parents are unaware that candy is
bad for the children and when they steal the nickel and/or penny here and
there, it’s hard to see it, but, you know, when the toaster disappears and then
the T.V. disappears (laughter), I mean, it’s very noticeable so they get upset.
I guess a lot of crimes depend upon degree of how serious is it. I guess really
nobody has the right to tell somebody else that they can’t do something that
they want to do, but it’s the unscrupulousness of the dealers which, I think,
has caused most of the problems. The law says now, even in
Q: So, you think, then that marijuana is more destructive than the present political system which is taking those kids and other smokers and throwing them in with hardened criminals and making criminals, with far more destructive qualities?
RK: I hear all those arguments. My concern is that such things which are destructive to the young and which undermine, essentially, the consciousness of the nation, should be somehow worked against. I don’t know if legislation is the best answer, but it’s the toughest one that people can think of in order to stop it. It is more than rampant these days, it’s a contagion.
I didn’t really get into this discussion in order to campaign against marijuana.... (laughter) ... and I don’t know that I necessarily want to. We do not have marijuana smoking here, and people who are, who determine that they will smoke marijuana are invited to leave, and they certainly are in danger of losing their membership in The Stelle Group, because that works against the, well just the health of the body. Anything which is destructive of the mind’s ability to fully function obviously goes against the development of spirituality. Your brain is your principle tool from which your Ego operates and if that’s only partially functioning, even if it’s only some of the time, then really it’s, you say you come to a spiritual community and you do something which undermines your ability to become spiritual, that doesn’t compute. Other than that it’s against the law in this State, so. What is it you want to do? The world is wide and there’s lots of places that smoke marijuana if you want to smoke marijuana and you can move to countries where there’s almost no hassle. This is a strange argument for me to be in. I don’t think I’ve ever gotten into this one before. (light laughter) I’m not entirely sure what my, you know, official stance is on it, ‘cause I haven’t thought it out that much. I—all I know is I am thoroughly revulsed when I see a second and third grader in trouble because he’s smoking marijuana. And that is more widespread than most parents even want to believe.
Q: I wanted to ask you that, what I have seen since I have been here is very beautiful, but what I want to ask is, it seems that there is a high advocation of steering away from spirituality into practicality or the manifestation levels and leave the spiritual stuff for someone else. I mean I see just a blanket taboo put down here, almost, from what I’ve seen, that steer clear of spirituality and just don’t get into any of that stuff and yet, on the same token, it seems that this whole community is based upon spirituality and how can we rise, our own selves, to be Masters, unless we do strive on the path of Love. Unless we do go forward ... ?
RK: I don’t think we are against love at all. We have tried, we have emphasized on as many practical levels as possible how people can be more loving. That does not mean more sexual. That means more loving. I think you may have confused my emphasis against getting into the occult with getting into spirituality. The occult and spirituality really are not the same. Spirituality works towards, Christ Consciousness, which is primarily lovingness and creativeness; being harmless to all. Getting your needs met without trampling on anyone else’s needs. These are the practical aspects of it and indeed, what Christ talked about. He’d talk about practical aspects of how to be spiritual, Making great show of spirituality, such as the scribes and Pharisees were want to do, He’s spoken against over and over. If you will be spiritual, do so in the closet of your mind, or out of sight of other people. Don’t do it for public acclaim. We speak very, very frequently, try to get people to understand, that the balance is the development of one’s ideality, one’s practicality, and one’s mentality, And you have to continue to enlarge all three aspects in balance. So, what we are, if you see that we are very much concerned with building beautiful homes, and having nice looking grounds and so forth, that does not mean that we are not spiritual, If we do strive for things which are idealistic and artistic, in as much balance as possible.
But spirituality is a hard thing to legislate either for or against. You’re either into that, or you aren’t. But we find that people build themselves in, well it’s kind of a correspondence between building things which are of service to other people, and building yourself. That’s a technique which has been used by a number of schools for many ages in the past. Oh, monasteries also use the same kind of techniques. You don’t just sit in an ivory tower and dream beautiful thoughts and think of God all day long. You’re actually out there sweating in the sun and serving your fellow man by say, if there is some kind of pestilence or a drought or something like that, the monastery was supposed to be out helping all the people in its area to get through all these things. Its service to other people.
There are many ways by which you can serve others. We tend to serve primarily through educational things: how to uplift children, how to make them more intelligent, how to give them more power to perceive their environment for what it really is and give them the tools by which to cope effectively in a positive way with that environment that they perceive. And we are, after all, a religious, educational organization. That’s what The Stelle Group has got its charter as, and we wish to continually concentrate on education. But we also follow this idea that as you build, you build yourself.